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楼主: 燕原
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【转贴专帖】真实世界的“真实”

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196#
发表于 11-7-12 11:31:48 | 只看该作者
哦,从创作的动力和目的来说,我也同意好的艺术作品出自单方面的表达愿望和冲动,创作的时候不是为了和人共振。但从创作冲动的来源说的话,很难说“更多是和自然共鸣了之后”,美感可以来自具象,也可以来自抽象的事物。

并且,“表达”本身很多时候隐含了对认同,对同类的追求,虽然不是对特定对象。普通人的抒情和表达更是如此。
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197#
 楼主| 发表于 11-7-12 12:54:45 | 只看该作者
恩,我现在开始感觉,女人抒情渴望对方移情比较真心,男人么,得好好想想,因为这不是一部分男人的本性,可能是功利面具。而像方舟子那种真心不讨好人群的,肯定是真面目啦。
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198#
 楼主| 发表于 11-7-12 13:22:56 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 燕原 于 11-7-12 13:24 编辑

昨天看非诚勿扰的主持人说,做了20年电视,搞不清什么节目收视高。收视高的节目,都是偶然碰上的。

感觉的确挺难。和NT一对一面对面,其实最能把握对方喜欢什么,然后投其所好地下功夫,越女性越年轻越容易把握,这点上来说,非诚勿扰的男嘉宾明白人不多。
而面对大众,就没有固定规则了。像达人秀,第一季用了最错不了的煽情,结果被批太煽;第二季一半煽情一半真功夫,随时根据评价调整上谁灭谁,然后被批太假,黑幕,没标准。
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199#
发表于 11-7-13 17:30:36 | 只看该作者
关于移情,照这篇文章(英文)的说法,AS和NT谁也别抱怨谁,都移不了情,长篇大论地掰开了揉碎了地解释才是正根儿。

http://www.journeyswithautism.co ... t-the-dinner-table/
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200#
 楼主| 发表于 11-7-13 21:17:24 | 只看该作者
这个都看不到也,我也太局域了。
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201#
发表于 11-7-13 21:39:22 | 只看该作者

RE: 【转贴专帖】Cognitive Empathy at the Dinner Table

作者:Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg

I’ve long felt that everyone has difficulty with cognitive empathy and perspective taking when it comes to minds that work differently from their own. A couple of weeks back, I had an interesting experience along these lines.

At the dinner table, I asked my husband Bob the following question:

Do you think I’m odd?

Now, if you’re on the spectrum, you probably realize that I asked the question because I wanted to know what he thought. If you’re not on the spectrum, you might wonder whether the question were a setup, along the lines of Do you think I look fat?

My husband, who is neurotypical, was absolutely stymied. Now, please understand that he is a very empathetic man in every sense, and that he is also very socially adept in conventional ways. He can read most people extremely well. He’s very sensitive. He’s the sort of person who can listen to you and make you feel like you’re the only person in the room. He can also can walk into a large social situation and chat it up with anyone. I’m often in awe of his social graces.

But when I asked him the question, he hesitated. He looked very uncomfortable. In fact, he had a look on his face that I recognized immediately. It’s the one that I’m sure I have on my face in most social situations. It was as though he were thinking about all the possible ways he could respond and couldn’t figure out which one was the right one.

I felt a pang of recognition.

It was very clear to me that he wasn’t able to figure out by my facial expression, my body language, my nonverbal cues, or the look in my eyes where I was coming from. So I decided to help him out in a way that I wish more people would help me out: I told why I’d asked the question.

“Honey,” I said. “I’m asking you a straightforward question to which I want a straightforward answer. I’m interested in how you see me.”

I could see he was still stuck. His neurotypical brain was saying, “I really have to finesse this somehow.” And the part of him that knows that I’m nothing if not direct was thinking, “Okay, I should just be a mensch and answer the question.”

So I helped him out again. “Really,” I said, “you must know me well enough by now to know that I don’t ask a question to which I don’t want the answer.”

He seemed relieved, and he said, “No, I don’t think you’re odd. But I do think you’re different.”

I found that helpful. The thing is, he couldn’t figure out why.

We talked more about it the next morning. He was still curious as to why I’d asked the question. Our ensuing conversation was a crystal clear example of the fact that like minds understand like minds, and that my experience of other people is very different from his experience of other people:

Bob: “Why do you want to know what I think of you?”

Me: “Because I’m interested.”

Bob: “But what does it matter? My opinion is purely subjective. It doesn’t say anything essential about you.”

Me: “Oh, okay. Let me clarify. I wasn’t asking you to tell me something essential about myself. I was asking what you thought.”

Bob: “I don’t understand that. You’re the only one who knows whether you’re odd or not!”

Me: “You’re right. Inside myself, I feel perfectly normal. After all, I’ve always been me. But I’m not always able to read how other people see me, because I don’t think like they do, and your opinion helps me imagine how another person might view me. In other words, I’m information gathering.”

Bob: “Okay. I see. That makes sense.”

Me: “I’m glad you understand now.”

Please note the sheer number of words expended to explain my state of mind and where I was coming from. He could not tell until I verbalized it.

Sound familiar? I thought so.

The way I see it, everyone has difficulty empathizing with experiences and ways of thinking that seem foreign to their own.

It’s not an impairment. It’s just called being human.
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202#
 楼主| 发表于 11-7-14 09:15:29 | 只看该作者
AS/NT之间肯定移情不了,AS/AS之间也不行。
这种NT之间的特殊交流渠道,感觉让NT们社会化成一个感性的整体,其中语言的字面意义只起到10%的作用,其他心领神会的共振感AS基本感觉不到。

还是不公平,而且无解。
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203#
 楼主| 发表于 11-7-22 12:21:13 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 燕原 于 11-7-22 12:41 编辑

三联生活周刊:朱德庸:小世界与大世界
2011年第29期   作者:王小峰 摄影:张雷

http://www.lifeweek.com.cn/2011/0714/34012.shtml

王三表挖掘得挺深,相当于一类AS的自我剖析了,有很多共鸣。
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204#
发表于 11-7-22 19:09:54 | 只看该作者
好文!朱德庸对自己的描述确实很符合自闭症里的很多特征。他说穿上军装就能放得开,这个特点和我儿子很像,我儿子到了中国这种地方就感觉很舒服,因为没有人认识他,他可以混在人群中,同时又是个外人,没有交流的压力。

我想起来儿子小的时候我们让他上周末的中文学校,他总是抗拒,一年以后我们就放弃了。最近他要求我们平时和他讲中文,因为他想听懂中文。这种孩子就是这样,他不想做的东西别人要他做就成了对他的伤害,而他想做的东西不用你压他他自然会做。专家们或者QBB们或者我妈这种人就会说:这样怎么行!他以后要吃亏的!哪能什么事都顺着他的意?必须训练他服从!好像这世上成长之路只有一条,谁想照自己的方式长就是不行,你长出那些七扭八歪的枝枝叉叉我们就要把它们掐掉,你只能按我们的方式长。这是因为人们不知道其实孩子按自己的方式长也一样长大,也一样能找到自己的路,只要他们有能力,自己努力,又有机会。

看到朱德庸通过昆虫来认识人类社会,觉得和我儿子在游戏里通过聊天学习交流简直异曲同工。非要要求他们按常规的方式学习那是在用他们的短处,他们自然选择的方法肯定是最适合他们自己的方法。
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205#
发表于 11-7-22 19:17:15 | 只看该作者
我也有很多共鸣,尽管小时候经历非常不同。
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206#
发表于 11-7-22 21:21:53 | 只看该作者
朱德庸说他随时都在接受信息,但是当时反应不过来,过了一段时间,这些信息就开始make sense。我觉得我儿子和很多自闭儿可能都是这种信息处理方式。他们的信息处理在后台,而且需要很长时间。我们看到他们当时不反应,就以为他们没接收到,其实他们都接收了,而且正在处理中,在将来的某个时候就会冒出一句评论,让你纳闷他是从哪里学到的那些东西。
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207#
 楼主| 发表于 11-7-22 22:34:06 | 只看该作者
我最感触的是最后一句,当时吓一跳,这也太直白了吧,虽然我心里也是这么想,但是不敢说出去。也就王三表能把这样的句子放在最后压底,没光明面啊,呵呵。

朱德庸还是挺幸运的。
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208#
发表于 11-7-22 23:27:41 | 只看该作者
让你这一说,我赶快回去看最后一句是什么,原来是“没法真正相信别人”。看来这是孩子将来不得不面对的一个问题。别的咱管不了,让他百分之百地信赖父母应该是可以做到的,这至少可以给他打下一个坚实的基础,剩下的就只能靠他自己了。
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209#
发表于 11-7-23 01:08:12 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 niuniuma 于 11-7-23 01:16 编辑

写短点:
朱德庸应该是没有ToM的吧?所以和外界没有共振(按照燕原对ToM的解释)。是社恐还是自闭?
婚姻似乎不错。

妞妞也喜欢玩昆虫,但是不会让昆虫大战,选王,因为没有那么高层的能力,我看她看虫子就是看,似乎脑子里什么也没想。所以还是要引导,思想才能丰富起来。

对他人无法真正相信----这点我很有共鸣。其实孩子们之间的玩(在女孩,8,9岁),还是很单纯的,也不复杂,对于妞妞来讲,因为和别人缺乏共振,就和别人不信任,更准确的说是“缺乏对他人的信赖感,距离感非常的强”(我以前在yl写的)。其实,放下这个不信赖和距离感,跟着听一听看一看别人在说什么干什么,就算社交了,理不理解也不重要。不能玩也没事,就站着看也行。不过她会觉得没劲。在我看很容易,可是她做不到。
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210#
发表于 11-7-23 08:06:09 | 只看该作者
哈,终于提起朱德庸了,我一直在微薄关注他,他每篇微薄都很有哲理性,我就觉得他有点AS.另外,他收养了一只得了癫痫的流浪猫.
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